5682 - Jeans, CrotchLength/Hip/Waist, DraftingFitting, My Bowl, View B

B5682

I added the 1/2″ to the hip at the back of the leg by slicing and spreading a half-inch then sliding a strip of aisle runner beneath and stitching in place. I didn’t move the waistband around again.  I have realized that’s all going to need to be redone because if what I am doing is correct, I will need to change the yoke which will change the width of the back and the point where the side seams attach to the waistband. It’s all relative. Everything affects everything else. Besides I have it close enough to see how the leg is affected.

The additional 1/2″ ease does seem to make a visual difference and my seat feels better. Like less of a sausage ready to escape its casing. Looking in the mirror, I was much encouraged and decided to compare with   Fit #01 with Muslin 1 i.e. the very first try on which contained only a few tissue changes. I was thinking that after 2 muslins 10 fittings and 20-30 alterations, the fit should be a whole lot better. Close to finished even. Was I ever so wrong?

After 5 days and all that work, I don’t think my muslin looks much better than it did with no changes. Am I being too timid?  Some things can’t be undone, so yes I do them in small increments. Doesn’t everyone? Or do you make the big step and then undo it later? Really? How do you un-scoop the back crotch?  I was hoping to be almost finished but even though the seat feels more comfortable the crotch does not. The total crotch length exceeds the crotch length of My Bowl. Also, while front crotch lengths are the same (between My Bowl and the fabric), the back crotch of the fabric is longer than the back crotch of My Bowl. Why does the crotch feel tight? Along that line, why is the waistband sitting above my waist? The top of the waistband should rest at the waist not above. Even with the last addition of seating ease (total extra added now 1″)  and 10% stretch the pant/WB has not dropped into place. It suggests that I still need more ease.

I feel like I’ve taken a wrong turn somewhere along the line.  I’m hitting the pause button, at a very minimum.  For years, I wouldn’t even buy a Big 4 pattern  because they were impossible for me to fit.  Hey, that’s:  back before age caught up with my body, I couldn’t fit a Big 4 pattern.  That could still be true today.

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5682 - Jeans, CrotchLength/Hip/Waist, DraftingFitting, My Bowl, View B

5682 View B:

  • I wasted some time considering the possibility of making a new muslin and even a different pattern. In the end I decided that it would be faster, easier and possibly better if I made what changes I could to this muslin and then cut new fabric. The changes for the next fitting:
  • Pinned out the side front Mickey Mouse ear, then stitched
  • Slashed the back over my seat. In the slash I inserted aisle runner. Stitched to one side and pinned 1/2″ away on the other.
  • Wanting to eliminate the question of are the lower leg issues due to length or fit, I trimmed another 1-3/4″ from the bottom.  That’s a total of 3″ which I don’t plan on removing from the pattern.
  • To straighten the side seam and hopefully erase some of the drag lines, I moved the side seam towards the CF along the waistband and pleated instead of gathering leg to WB. Sigh, this is not a permanent end point. I’ve realized if the ease I have added is correct, I will also need to change the yoke. When I do, I”ll know how long the WB needs to be but not where the side seams need to join it.

Before I slashed, I marked the back where my butt stuck out the most. I was quite surprised at how high that mark was.  I determined the max protrusion point mostly visually  but also by smoothing my hand from the top towards it and then again from below to the point.  I thought that would be reasonably accurate.  Where I thought it should be and where it was (orange line below) was not even close. Just for comparison sake, the ruler top edge is sitting on the crotch and the Blue line above would be the hip level as specified in my drafting class. Why is my butt flying high above that?

 Ruler at Crotch; Blue line 4″ above; Orange line at my  seat.

I’m getting tired of this.  Sometimes I just don’t have enough staying power.  I know I make the process longer because I insist on making one change at a time. Two at a time at most.  But I come back to the same question: if the hip and waist have sufficient ease and the front and back crotch are the correct length, why is it such an issue to fit pants?  It should be just tweaking. Not all the crap that I am doing.

OK for Fit 04

Did not draw the side lines for you. It was ease for me to see that the side seam is leaning towards the back but the rest is dropping to the floor quite nicely.  I’m ignoring wrinkles and folds I see on either side and just noting that right along the side seam looks pretty good.

You have to look on the right side — ignore the left. I made all changes to the right side. The mouse ears are  not visible nor did I notice them once I put the pants back on.  Pleating the pant to join to the waistband did make the upper pant much smoother. But now instead of an entire smooth leg, I have divots at the crotch.  I’ll confess that the crotch felt tight this time too.  It may be because I have my back support on (the black you see above the WB.) Next pics I will remove my support but if it has that much an effect upon fit, I’ll have to think about fitting for this frequently needed support.

The issue here was VPL except we could see the entire pink pantie.  While we don’t see the VPL, I still don’t have enough ease across the seat. Next fit will only be a 2nd slice adding another 1/2″. (But I ask myself, aren’t jeans supposed to be this close?  Am I trying to turn a jean pattern into trouser fit?  If that is the case, why don’t I just start with a trouser and cut a yoke?

FIT 05  CHANGES MADE TO BACK ONLY

To make sure we focused where the changes were made, I cropped the pics to show just the right side.

I think the side view looks nicer but I can tell you the side seam has not been straightened. It is just reacting to the additional ease across the seat.

Sadly the front, looks even worse, IMO.   I removed my back support for the pics just in case the support was having a real impact on the fit. If the support was having an impact, it was for the better.

The back is better in that the part I wanted to fix — not enough ease across the seat– has been fixed. The seat doesn’t feel or look too tight for jeans. For trousers, I might want a little more ease; for slacks especially with a little Lycra, I’d be happy as is.  But I haven’t solved all the fit issues. There is still more to do.

 

5682 - Jeans, CrotchLength/Hip/Waist, DraftingFitting, View B

5682B Muslin 2: Continue to Fit

So, I drew another back crotch curve setting it 1/2″  away from the previous. Then I tried to find the place of biggest difference. Not so easy when trying to hold fabric sewn into a 3D shape and holding a 2D pattern next to the fabric.

I came close enough and (right pic) stitched, trimmed and admired my new back crotch.

Above, ripped open the side seams from about 1″ below waist to about 6″ below crotch.  I drew but did not trim a new curve for the front, side seam raw edge.  Aligning the back side seam with the new front, side-seam curve was pretty easy but did give me cause for deliberation. Didn’t I need to also offset the amount carved out of the back crotch?  I’m pretty reluctant to make multiple changes at the same time.  Peggy Sagers makes it look so easy. But here at home, by myself, I find  when I make multiple adjustments that later on I undo those same adjustments.  I’ve made 2 changes. That’s enough for the next set of pics.

I’m cutting to the chase and posting both Fit 1 and Fit2 pics so we can view and critique at the same time.  Let’s look at the side seam first.

Unlike Fit 1, the side seam is not clearly displaying Mickey Mouse ears or excess side fabric. The side seam curve is pretty clear.  Definitely leaning towards CB  just under the waistband but then straightening by the hip.  From that point, I’m not sure if the seam is continuing in an arc towards the ankle or behind the ankle. Something to keep an eye on.  I am pleased the side view looks better. Lots and lots of better. I’m looking just under the hip and all the way down the leg.  Fewer drag lines, fewer folds. I like this.

Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Almost can’t believe the front is looking so much better I’d quit messing with the front if both sides looked like the left of Fit2 . The picture doesn’t show it too well, but there is still about 1/2″ of excess ease along the side seams. That is something not seen in the side view and again you won’t see in the back view. Before we get  to the back  though I am quite interested in how the right side divot has continued and even  may be a little deeper.  In Fit1 there were diagonals, not quite the whiskers of a short crotch length around the inseam. In Fit 2, there may be one on the right side (none on the left). Then again it may be entirely related to the right-side divot.

OK time to look at the back:

Did you notice a lack of enthusiasm three? I am seeing  little to no improvement. In some places there are more drag lines then there were before. I am also seeing a mirror of the lower front leg diagonal. It’s most prominent on the left leg but it’s there on the right as well. I cringe because I think I am seeing the beginning of the dreaded X wrinkles. They are located higher than usual i.e. not right at the knee but up by the thigh. Is this an improvement or not?  So far I have followed the curve of My Bowl of the 2nd orientation (using the water-spout for inseam location). It’s pretty flat…

… a shallow even curve with both front and back at the same level.  Most of my pants have needed the back crotch to be lower than the front at least this much:

In the past and depending upon  pattern and fabric, I have scooped even further.  (I have what Palmer and Pletsch called a “High Low Anomaly”. They only write 1 paragraph on this. If you’re not reading carefully you will miss it.  I passed by at least a dozen times until someone told me the page to look upon. )

For Fit03 I will take the front side seams in another 1/2″.   On the back, I will scoop so that the back is lower than the front.

I paused before making the planned changes.  I wondered if somehow I had misread the pattern.  I thought when looking at this:

.. that the contents were a pattern for 1 pant style ( a jean) with pocket and hem-width options/variations. I thought: Fit once make 5 different looking pants! Now I wondered if that was true since the top of the waistband with View A is sitting at the waist with the rest extending below. The Version B waistband was resting at the waist but extending upwards. The top of the waistband is closer to my rib carriage but not uncomfortably so. I looked closely at the pic and think, well B  could have a different waistband.  I pull out the waistband pattern:

It clearly says for A, B (the view I’m fitting), C, and D.  Patterns have lied to me before, OK been misprinted, so I pull out the instructions:

Again, pretty clear the same waistband is to be used for both A and B versions. But then again patterns have lied to me before…

Moving on, I think since I’m not  making significant progress on the back, maybe I should start at ground zero and measure the actual pant crotch. Wrangling fabric so the sewn together pieces can be measured was no joy but it did reveal  a back crotch length 16.5″ ; front 12.25″. I need 16/13.) Both measurements are with waistband. The WB really should be sitting with the top at my natural waist! Like the pic of 5682! Why is sitting up so high?

I move the side seam forward 1″ along the waistband to correct the leg curve. Next measure and mark 1/2″ below the back crotch.  I use my curve to join the mark to both previous front and back curves. A little tricky but done. Then I stitch and trim the new crotch curve and measure a second time.  After the curve adjustment, the back curve is  the same length,16.5″. The front however has grown to 12.75″. How? It’s always possible my measuring was not entirely accurate. But I’m surprised to be 1/2″ off.  Could that really have made the front crotch grow 1/2″? You know,  I wouldn’t even blink if it had been 1/8″. Wouldn’t give it a second thought. But 1/2″?  ??? I proceed to making new fitting pics.

The curvature of the side seam is much improved. But the inch was not enough.  I’ll need to move the side seam forward again. The curve shifts backwards at the hip level; wobbles a little at the knee and then breaks at the ankle.  I think these are to be expected i.e. not a problem.

Look at the waistband first and the diagonals extending from it.  I had so much extra fabric to ease to the waistband, I didn’t do a good job. On a trouser I would prefer a front pleat and back darts. Next time I move the side along the waistband, I think I will change from gathers to pleats. You may be a better judge, but I personally can’t really tell if those diagonals are fitting issues or just excess fabric in the wrong place  for the smoothest front.  I question that they are length indications because 1) the total length is only 1/4″ less than needed and 2) when wearing, it feels a bit long between WB and crotch. Also, I’m looking again inside that red box. Why are there diagonals on the right side but not left? They  seam to be extending from the zipper application. Is that possible? Would a bad zipper application cause such a thing?  Whoops, I forgot to change the ease at the side! Still got MM ears on the side.  That’s important  to remember because when you look at the back:

Micky Mouse ears in the front BUT Visible Pantie in the back??? If circumference is just circumference, why doesn’t it move to the back where it is needed instead of poking out on the side front?.  Interesting set of inseam diagonals. Right under the bum they all point up and toward the sides. Around the knee, they start pointing from the inseam down and towards the side seam. Not exact X wrinkles as they do not meet/cross at any point. Not at knee; not like Fit 02 where they crossed at the thigh.

This is enough work for today.  Tomorrow I shall

  • Shift the side seams toward the front  1/2′ along the waistband
  • Pleat instead of gather leg to waistband both front and back
  • Trim 1/2″ on the front side seam (Mickey Mouse Ears)
  • Add more fabric to back side seam and increase the back side seam.

 

5682 - Jeans, CrotchLength/Hip/Waist, DraftingFitting, My Bowl, View B

5682B Muslin 2: The Next Step

I crossed my fingers as I made multiple adjustments to front and back. Using the second placement, I marked the curve of My Bowl. Found the largest difference, measured and annotated it.

 

Starting on the front.

(Above) The crotch was 1/2″ too tall. I trust My Bowl when it comes to crotch length. This was a surprise, but  prompted my  first change (pic below)  with a 1/4″ dart across the front to remove the excess height.

I drew a new front crotch curve trying to hit 1″, half the amount of the largest difference and trimmed the excess.  I didn’t think that through very well. I had removed the zipper fly, hollowed the crotch and then tried to replace the zipper fly. Not exactly possible as the front crotch had become extremely curved. So toss the  old fly, taped a new piece of aisle runner underneath and draw  a new fly.   I slashed from waist to about 2″ below the crotch line and stitched another piece of aisle runner beneath one side. Directly across from the largest difference on front crotch, I marked 1/2″, i.e. half amount hollowed out; realigned the two sides  with 1/2″ added where marked and stitched the other side  in place.  Trim excess tissue take big breath. Oh, I want to point out that dart beneath the crotch that terminated at the inseam.  I really want all your Silhouette Pattern devotees to know I have made that adjustment.

Onto the back,

On the far right is shown where I  sliced from waist to hem, spread and added an additional 1/2″ ease equally all up and down the back leg.  That’s the amount I had to add during fitting of Muslin 1.  I didn’t really want to add ease all the way up and down. It makes the leg larger; less. But it was the easiest action and for right now I want to know how reshaping the crotch affects the pant. next I drew a new back crotch biting into the back a mere 1/2″. It was a surprise to me. I expected the back crotch to need more reshaping. That’s not what the bowl comparison is tell me.  That’s followed by another slice from waist to just below the crotch and similar to the front and adding another piece of aisle runner. The two sides of the slice are separated by 1/2″ directly across from the marked largest difference between  My Bowl and the back pattern crotch.  Again, I’ve highlighted the Inseam Dart. I want everyone to know I made the blasted thing on both front and back.

I am not wild about the results on either front or back. They look wild and my pattern pieces have a tendency to undulate in place. I want pattern pieces to lay as flat as possible — for paper. But I’m wanting  a quick method to see how reshaping the crotch and adding an offset is helpful and how much change is needed. If this fix is confirmed, I have located a few other tissue alterations that would keep the paper flat.

Turning my attention to making a muslin, I considered ripping Muslin 1 (M1)  apart but realized I’d made a lot of changes including reshaping the crotch. Also M1 would not be large enough. I’d need to add strips and pieces which I fear would add further inaccuracy. Instead I saved  the waistband as is because it felt pretty good on and I had tweaked it 3 times to get it this close.  I tossed the rest of M1. In the muslin stash was  another fabric that is actually a better pant fabric.  It has a wild print that I don’t want to wear over my bottom. I had purchased it thinking a top.  Too heavy for a top. Too wild for a pant.  Muslin it is. it is composed of cotton and lycra and has about a 10% stretch. Enough stretch to be comfortable. Not enough to effect fit. Unfortunately though, not the best for comparing with the previous no-stretch, stiff fabric.

After 2 hours I’m ready to cut fabric and sew. Once again I have proved, construction of a pant is so quick and easy.  All the time and effort went into working with My Bowl and the Tissue! I trimmed the hems off the bottom. Why hem when you plan to wear this long enough to check a few things and then discard? Also, did you note that I said very little about the yoke?  My Bowl converged with the top of the leg and practically mirrored the CB yoke seam.  I thought no change was needed. Consequently during construction, the yoke was really eased to the top of the leg which had been spread 1/2″ for fitting. But, this is  quite in line with what I need to do with closely fitting jeans.  Do it every time I make TJ906.  Generally I need, 3 darts in back. None in front, but THREE in back. I’m not a lover of the contour waistband. It’s a requirement for nice-looking, authentic jeans. But I don’t love it because making 3 darts is much easier than easing that much of a difference. It’s done, mind you. Just not a whole lot of fun and it looks odd until it is on my body. I was ready to try on the pants when I had an “Oh crap” moment. Recall this pic..

..wherein I purposely placed the waistband above the yoke to remind myself that the waistband needed to be included in the total crotch length. Well “Oh Crap”, I didn’t do that. I almost went back to the sewing machine to make a 5/8″ tuck (my waistband is 1-1/4″ wide) when I decided to just slip them on and check.

Probably a good move as neither crotch feels too long. Front crotch length looks good. I am on the fence about the back crotch length.  I looked at front and back quickly. Then checked the side view and drew in the side seam.

I find the side seam is a real good indicator of where the fit issue is.  Interestingly this one wants to curve from waist forward and back to about mid-ankle.   There is some buckling at the knee but not the occurrence of diagonal pull/drag lines I’ve been seeing for a while.

Return to the front

Look closely at the sides. These are the “Mickey Mouse” ears I have referred to in past posts. There is no flesh filling out the curve. I think this is the reason for the curved side seam. Before I plan action to fix the ears, I compare the M2 Front  with the nicest front pic of M1

I definitely think M2 looks better. Nearly all diagonals are gone.  I see some just below the waistband. 1) there’s a lot of gathering going suggesting that the waistband and joining pieces need more fitting. For now, I’m ignoring those.  There is one fold on M2’s right hip unlike the multiple on M1.  There’s also a few downward lines around the crotch. I am not concerning myself with the rest of the leg yet.  I think the first thing is to reduce the crotch-reshaping offset. I am happy to do this as the pattern will assume a more typical appearance.

Moving along to the back and, heck, lets compare with M1 at the same time.

There are more diagonals on the back than the front. Interestingly enough, I don’t’ see the ears. The fabric of M1 was very, umm, firm so the back of the leg poofed instead of the folds I am seeing on M2. I’m not really sure the leg is better or worse. Like I said earlier comparing these two fabrics is not the going to give me the best results. But I will be able to see what is working.

Dang!  I was really hoping for a one and done. Not going to happen. First up is reducing the ears on front. Next is reshaping the back crotch  another 1/2″ which means making another crotch-offset.

5682 - Jeans, CrotchLength/Hip/Waist, View B

5682 View B Fitting

I’ll say it again and again and again. Pants are easy to sew!  I used water-soluble thread in the bobbin. I cut the inseams 1/4″ wide so I had to serge them but otherwise, basting all the way including the yoke, zipper and waistband. No other edge finishes–this is a test garment. My personal experience is that without the zipper and waistband in place, I can’t adequately fit the pant. Happily I had 5682 View B  ready to try on in what seemed like no time (about an hour because I did add interfacing to both waistband and facing). Before trying on, I measured the front and back crotches on the sewn garment. I came up with 16.25″ in back 13 in front. I always take that with a grain of salt though because it is hard to manage fabric, zipper, multiple seams and ruler or measuring wheel. IOW the measurements might not be accurate.

Fit 01

This is a terrific first fitting, after all,  I have worn worse looking pants. I don’t see or feel any large issues. It really looks like I will be tweaking rather than making substantial changes.  I’ll remind you again, the fabric has no stretch while the pattern specified denim or stretch woven. Some of the appearance of ill fit might be a result of the no stretch.

I’m just not sure about the front. Does the tummy look tight to you? I am unsure about the front crotch. It feels long enough but I think should be reshaped a little just before the curve. That’s not unusual for me. The paren () crotch shape just isn’t mine.  I recognize the familiar diagonal lines over by the sides.

The back looks both a little tight and the crotch a little wrong. During the pics I could tell it was gaping. I think that had more to do with a front waistband flapping about issue.  The waistband ripped away about 3″ close to the zipper. WST is great for test garments but that is a disadvantage.  With this fabric instead of a folded mess I’m getting poof underneath my rear.  The sideline:

drops straight from waist to knee; ;buckles a little at the knee and then drops straight to the hem. Nice!

Changes:

  • Stitch the waistband together in front
  • Let out the side seams 1/8″, evenly (no curves on the side seam; the change needs to be evenly divided.)
  • Make the first Diagonal Dart 1/2″ deep

Fit 02:

Well the ease added to the front did nothing to improve it’s looks.  The 1/2″ total ease added made the waist too big. I pulled it tight and clipped in place for the pics.  On the side, the seam still drops nicely from the waist and in this pic all the way to the ankle. I can clearly see the diagonals which have always been the result of the side seam being too long.  I am not sure why those diagonals are extending beneath the back waistband downward towards the left or right.  The leg and yoke joined smoothly without the slightest stretching.  Have to think about that.The extra ease does make the back across the hip looks a little nicer. I think that the back crotch may still be a bit short–even though it measures 16″ the amount specified by my bowl. It just seams to be tucking up into my bifurcation.  I’ve basted a 1/2″ deep fish-eye dart across the right leg.   Which has me undecided.  The right leg looks much nicer from the dart to hem but from dart to butt it has developed some nasty diagonals. Frankly, I’d rather have the poofy look of the left leg;and remember I already made a 3/8″ inseam dart to the pattern. I shouldn’t need to make it now. Usually I put off scooping the crotch. But I strongly felt the front crotch needed to be reshaped (it did) and so did the back crotch at the same time.

both are just slight changes. More like refining the crotch shape changing from () to L’s.

I slimmed the hem to 17″ by increasing the SA at the hem 1/2″ tapering to 3/8″ from the knee to wait.  Was planning to change the inseam hem the same amount on the tissue but I like the way this leg looks.  However, I don’t like this pant for jeans. It would be useful to me as a slacks pattern should I be able to solve all the issues noted above.  I like best the front of Fit01 and the back of Fit 02, again as a slack. not a jean

Planned Fit 03 Changes:

  • Add as much length to back crotch as possible.
  • Offset waist band 1/4″ side seam to CF
  • Ease pant to waist band so no ease is added at the waist.
  • 1/2″ Vertical fish eye dart applied to the left leg.

I offset the waistband 1/2″, I wanted to be very sure I had removed enough to make a difference. Next I added 2″ strip at the top of the pant leg and then stitched the yoke so that 1/2″ was added to the crotch length. Inside the back looks a little odd…

..but this is a test garment. I’m not concerned about looks so much as results.  Finally I made the fish eye dart 1/2″ deep in the left leg.

I tried placing the dart so it would look like a gusset which is a very common and acceptable tailoring aid. Then I took pics:

I would say disappointing pics because I don’t see any improvement. In fact, I think the back leg looked better before the fish eye dart

Before Dart   After Dart

It’s possible the dart is in the wrong place or not deep enough.

I know someone out there is eager to suggest Peggy’s solutions. First I am not removing any length from the crotch. I need every 1/4″ especially with this non-stretch fabric. As for the top of inseam dart, I put that in the tissue. It is already incorporated and is not having the desired effect. It is ludicrous to expect to do the same exact thing but get different results. IOW I’m not adding another top of inseam dart.  It’s done. It failed. I’m not repeating the failure.

I have 3 issues on the front

  1. it now has too much ease due to adding more for the back in Fit 02.
  2. the waist is still too large even though I have reduced it through easing the pant leg to the waistband. For the Fit 03 pics I still needed to overlap and clip at the front
  3. Those diagonal wrinkles were not reduced one iota and I doubled my initial estimate of how much needed to be removed.

So what will I do. I’m going to remove the ease added to the front in Fit 02 by using a narrow seam in the center of the front. I will offset the waistband another 1/2″. I’m tired of moving the waistband back and forth. I am adding elastic and letting the elastic gather the waist to my body.  In Fit 02 and 03, I have adapted the waist by overlapping further in front. While it makes the waist smaller it does pull the sides toward the center as when we tie a blouse at center front:

 

My rayon blouse cooperates and ties very nicely. The stiff cotton  fabric does not ie. I pull. It resists.

Fit 04 I put a 1/8″ seam in the center of each leg which removed 1/4″ circumference. I offset the waistband 3/4″ lower to help with the diagonal lines and I inserted 1-1/4″ wide elastic into the waistband so I wasn’t pulling to any particular point when snugging the waist to my body.  Truth is, I add elastic to all my waistbands. I enjoy the comfort it gives me to have a waistband  that will stretch a little when my tummy needs it. Oh and I learned this trick from my favorite jean after taking an old pair apart one day.  Let’s look at the side view first

I am happy to see nearly all the leg diagonals are gone.  Those that remain are at the knee or lower and may be the result of knee movement or the below ankle length I’ve chosen. IMO sides are fine. I see no further reason to work with them.

Yes it is blurred. I don’t understand. My camera is placed in a fixed position. It cannot move.  I set the timer then go take my position and stand very still until I hear the click of the shutter. How do I get blurred pics?  Well the most important thing here is that I moved the vertical fisheye dart from the gusset area to the center-back, left-leg. The change did not improve the back of leg. The better leg is still the fish eye, diagonal dart on the right leg.

FIT 04                                    Fit 01

The front is… well not what I was expecting. I thought returning the front circumference to the default, since it looked so good in Fit 01. While the diagonals disappeared on the back and side views, my front has developed prominent Jodhpur thighs.   But as I compare carefully, I see that there were always deep  folds across my thigh crease and the diagonals below.  It is some how like the fabric is falling sideways and then down.

Truthfully, I am not sure what to do.  This is particularly disappointing because I have felt with each fitting that I almost had it. Like the next tweak would be the last. For now, I have pressed carefully and hung in the closet. Tomorrow, I hope to be inspired with new ideas and new solutions. For, as of now, 5682 View B is a  DUD.

 

5682 - Jeans, View B

5682 View B

I kept thinking about the whole crotch/hip/waist relationship. Wondering if V1411 had fit nicely because it was a Sandra Betzina draft or because I’d stumbled upon the right size (for those 3 critical measures) and alterations. I remembered both 5682 and Silhouette Patterns 3200 as being easy to fit. How could they be easy and V1411 in 2 sizes larger be easy  if they shared the same basic draft? (I”m ignoring all the false starts I had with V1411. The last version was easy.)  I am fairly sure they do share the same basic draft. Especially 5682 which was sold by Vogue and V1411 sold by their sister company Butterick. The Big 4 have their draft down and haven’t changed it, famous designers notwithstanding. It seems to me that for all 3 patterns to be easily fit, they must all 3 have the same critical measures. They don’t.  So I, intending only to measure, pulled out 5682 and measured View B

I measured View B, not A, because View A’s leg was too small. In time I added width to the hem.  I am assuming that all 5 views of 5682 are the same with differences in leg styling. If I traced again, it would not be View A. 

Dotting out all the 5/8″ seam allowances and using a flexible ruler, I measured front and back crotch, hip then compared with 5682 View A, SP3200 and  V1411 figures. I said “Huh.” I did what little housework was required downstairs all the while thinking…

Earlier I had added the yoke and waistband widths. Now I took my personal measurements, subtracted WB and yoke  (as appropriate) and I figured out how much the pattern needed to measure to fit me.  Which is:

  • Front Crotch  11.5
  • Back Crotch 12.5
  • Hip 45 (includes 1.5″ ease)

None of the sizes came close to what I need. Seeing that, it makes me wonder how on earth 5682 View A was so easy to fit the first time? So I stopped to read my posts. They say we forget pain. We remember we had pain, but we forget the intensity. It must be true because for View A, I made 3 aisle runner muslins and 3 different fabric versions before I was satisfied. I did not say “until I perfected” just that I was satisfied enough to wear the resulting pants  everywhere. Even after reaching a satisfied point, I continued to tweak the crotch or somewhere else with nearly every version. I’ve made about a dozen of these. As I read, I realized the first mistake had been saying an 18″ was close enough to start with. During fitting View A I added 1″ to both back and front crotch length. With each new version I added crotch-length either by slash and spread (front) or scooping (back). My last version has 27 5/8″ crotch length. According to my bowl I need 29″. (Anyone remember writing that my crotch looked short?  You were right!).  Eventually, on View A,  I added the 3/8″ inseam darts recommended by Peggy Sagers and reshaped both front and back from  paren “()” or C shapes into more of a J or L. The final measurements, after repeated muslins and trials, were close to the size 20.  I realized View A had not been easy to fit. I had pounded away at it until I was satisfied.

So now I wanted to sew 5682 starting with the correct critical measurements. To fit  View B, I copied size 20, all around, added 1″ height to the back crotch, 2-1/4″ to the front crotch and made the Top of Inseam Dart 3/8″ (removes 3/4″ total) on front and back.  I also measured the top edge of the waistband and reduced it to my waist circumference.  Just so I have a place to make further changes under the butt when/if needed, I chalked and then basted diagonal lines across the front and back legs a l`a V1411.  My plan is to fit as much as possible with Size 20 and then make the fish eye dart. Using a diagonal will make the fish eye dart look decorative rather than  like an afterthought.

In the muslin stash was a cotton stripe. It landed there because it is white. I don’t wear white pants.  Can’t keep them clean long enough to leave the room in which I dress. No stretch and this pattern calls for denim or stretch wovens but doesn’t specify an amount of stretch. I am assuming not much because denim needs Lycra to stretch a lot. I pressed and stretched the fabric onto my cutting table. Topped it with the back, front, yoke and waistband pieces. I’m not messing with pockets this time around.

5682 - Jeans, Airlie, DG2

The DG2 Crotch Shape

I not only read you comments, but I take them to heart. So when it was suggested that I buy a new pair of my DG2 jeans and trace that crotch, I thought “Why not?”.  Just so happens Diane Gilman had just put her jeans on sale. I pay between $60-80 for DG2 jeans. I didn’t need another pair but for $30 I couldn’t pass the sale up. I used this opportunity to buy a slightly different color, Olive, that still needs my needs for my bottoms to be neutral. I wouldn’t wear olive with every color in the rainbow. But I can’t think of a thing in my closet I would not pair with the Olive jeans. I know it might not always be the best color combination but it will look OK.  So with suggestion from TheYellowRose in my ear and a new pair of DG2 jeans in hand, “Why not?”

I used the masking tape method.

It goes pretty fast. Does use a lot of tape. I didn’t copy the entire leg. I copied the back from yoke to 4″ of inseam. The front I copied from waistband to 4″ of inseam. Once taped, I carefully removed and placed on tissue paper where I smoothed and firmly pressed.

Before trimming away the excess tissue and stray tape ends to reveal a neat copy:

 

Next step was comparing with my 5682 and the Airlie pant. I still have the tissue on which I copied both patterns. 5682 is the Orange colored lines; Airlie is in blue. I tried to align crotch point and upright with each for a pic.  BACKS:

FRONT

It’s hard for me to pinpoint the grain of fabric after it’s sewn so I did try to align grain lines.

I was surprised at how different the DG2 is from either 5682 or Airlie. I thought Airlie would have less circumference being as the fabric recommended has 40% stretch while the DG2 measures 20-25%.

Over all, I thought DG2 would be very close to 5682 (orange lines). It was stunningly different both front and back.

I satisfied my curiosity but otherwise, not sure where I am going with this.  Your comments and suggestions are again, more than welcome.

 

5682 - Jeans, Airlie

3 Pant Patterns Day 3: Grains Aligned

I have been examining my fitting pattern of 5682, the progressive tissues of Airlie and my unsewn DG2 jean. I’ve been looking at minutae trying to decide what is different and what effect it has. When my brain started smouldering I knew it was time for a different tack (sailing, not sewing).  Instead of the tissues, I compared 5682 with the original Airlie pattern.  I was again surprised at how closely they resembled each other. I’d almost swear they were drafted by the same person and changed only to eliminate the back yoke and add a different waistband. It seemed to me that all the changes were from the back yoke up. So why does it affect the back of the leg?  If not for the back of the leg, I’d wear Airlie Muslin 1

I was desperate, no doubt about that, but I also truly wanted to see the difference beween my fitted 5682 and Airlie.  In blue, I traced the original Airlie . Pinned the pocket in place so I was not having to account for pocket pieces. Not one more change to Airlie–at least at this point.  I placed 5682 on top and lined up the grain lines, before tracing my fitted 5682 on top in orage.  I added the yoke to 5682 and then belatedly, added the waistband to both.  Yoke, and waistbands were overlapped so that their seam allowances could be ignored.  Took Pictures. Well even though it’s only back and front, there are enough lines to be confunsing.  Also more than enough to start telling a different tale about these drafts.

The first thing I want to point out is how Airlie’s pocket sits.  I saw the same thing when I added the pocket to the Yellow Stripe 5682.  The side seam slopes sharpely up

On my body, the highest point is my center front waist everything slopes down to the sides and then gently from the sides up to CB.  The high side seam is not right for me.  I can see I need to open up the WB on the Yellow stripe and correct that immy.

Since were looking at the front, lets look at all of it but compared with the 5682.

So yes the 5682, orange, is much higher than Airlie, blue. But do recall that I had already added to Airlie for the muslins and I believe all of this has been accounted for. What I am really find interesting is the leg shape.  Earlier I aligned the pattern pieces on top of each other with the grain in the same direction but not matched.  For this comparison, I aligned grainlines and crotch points.  Crotch points may be slightly off because I’ve added length to the 5682 which is not in this tracing of the original. I’m taking points with a grain of salt, it is how the legs are distributing the circumferece and the actual shape of the crotch that caught my eye.  On 5682, there is less ease along the inseam more along the side seam. Interesting because I usually don’t need more along the side seam, I need in the seat area. I know with the muslins that the original crotch shape had been changed. However  Muslin 1 and Fit 1 were the nicests fit. None of the changes enhanced the front at all. Some made it worse .

And what we’ve all be waiting for, the Back:

The legs align much better .  5682, has a more ease along the entire side seam, but not much. 1/2″ at the most. The crotch is vastly different. Vastly. There is more ease in the inseam above the knee as well as more next to the crotch.  5682 crotch point is at least 1″ longer the Airlie. However the crotch upright is probably 3/4″ shorter and there isn’t nearly the scoop of the Airlie back crotch. No wonder further scooping and darting of the back didn’t help!

One further item I compared using the pants, is where the waist rests on my body. The both rest  right at my waist.  I made the test by putting the Airlie on and marking my body with a Sharpie; then putting the 5682 on and checking where it rested. It they are exactly together, it’s not more than a 1/16″ apart.   To me, it further attest to how similar these two pattern are. The change in the back crotch extension was done to 5682 by me. I added all that length which I know also added the extra by the inseam down to the knee. Where the crotch rises, I believe, is the real difference in the 2 crotches.

 

I have a question for all of you.  When I heard/read that people copy their crotch curve to a new pattern, I always assumed the copied just the test tube shape (in whatever form it has morphed) onto the new pattern.  Is that right, or do you copy more? do you include the waist? The side seam? Any part of the inseam?

 

 

 

5682 - Jeans, Airlie

3 Pant Patterns Day 2

So yesterday’s exercise was a lot of food for thought.  One of the questions which occurred to me was “how far/much different had the Airlie pant become from its original. So not comparing to the 5682 or the DG2 RTW jean, but to the original.  Most changes I made to Airlie were small or done in small increments. The largest at any time was a 1″ tuck for the leg length. The largest over all was adding 3″ to the total crotch extension ( 1.5″ when divided) which was done in 1/2” increments. I wondered with all the incremental changes, how different was the final?  So I smoothed out each of the backs (1, 2, &3) and compared each to the original, uncut pattern.  No pics because, white tissue on top of white paper photos like a picture of a big blank white board. Unfortunately for the visual orientated, this post will be entirely in words.

Comparing the Original back with #1.  The extra 1″ I added to the side seam for fit insurance is the first thing that jumps out at me but is of no consequence, really. It doesn’t change the shape and  was easily trimmed away.  Secondly of note is the 1/2″ added at the end of the crotch to make it longer and go further between my legs. I made the legs shorter, but didn’t think that affect the fit above the knee. The dart I made along CB crotch reduced the height 1″ as I needed. Surprisingly, and something I had not noted or even thought about, that dart changed the angle of the back crotch upright.  As originally drafted the back crotch leans slightly towards the side seam and away from the CB vertical. After the dart, the crotch leans the opposite and even passes the CB vertical.

Comparing Original with #2, the side seam has been reduced to 1/2″ over the 3/8″ drafted (i.e. is now 7/8″ instead of 1-3/8″), again not a biggie. The crotch is extended 1.5″ which is really out there and I noticed that it droops. Yes the point is 3/8″ lower than the original. Should it be?  I did the knee slash method of extending, which keeps all the pieces attached and creates a nice crotch curve. The point isn’t lower because of my error unless the instructions were supposed to say raise point xx” and I didn’t raise the point.   So,I note the drooping here, but not sure this is an error. I also note that the inseam has developed a sharp corner at the knee and somehow removes about 3/8″ knee circumference.  Maybe I give more significance than I should, but it reminds me I need to accommodate my  knobby knees.

Comparing Original with #3 the only real change I see is that the crotch upright now leans in the original direction (towards the side seam) and CB has moved towards the side seam 1.5″ from it’s original position. Hello?  Does anybody remember seeing that yesterday?

So that’s how that happened.

Sadly, these comparisons didn’t give me any new clues on how to fix the back wrinkles. It did occur to me that I had not done a typical alteration, that of shortening the side seam length. I seem to get these interesting folds extending from about the dart in front, across the side seam terminating beneath the dart in back. Picking up the side seam i.e. shortening the side seam length above the hip completely removes them. Copy that alteration to the pattern, and I do not ever again see those folds.  I didn’t recall having done that, so I took 5 minutes to rip out the waistband and drop it 1″ lower at the side seam tapering back to its place at both CF and CB. Nope, no help.

I’ve started wondering if it is a bad idea to choose pattern by girth. If I choose size based on my hip, then I need to shorten the back crotch length because pattern drafters assume the wider you get the taller you grow. Not true, and so I need to reduce the back crotch length.  Tummy/waist girth is assumed to be much smaller than hip/seat, unless pregnant. Not for me.  I have to add tummy room and finally front crotch height. See I need 3 alterations because I choose pattern size by the girth of my hips. Oh and usually I make a 4th alteration, adding 1″ width to the back and removing it from the front because I am not symmetrical i.e. there isn’t as much of me on the front as the back all up and down my frame but that isn’t because of my girth. It is because  I’m a similar to a large busted woman. Pattern makers measure the full bust circumference and divide that measurement in half to draft the top half of blouse.  The large busted woman finds she has too much fabric in back while the front strains to close and cover her assets and where most of her girth resides. This is so common that it  had been widely recognized and many patterns are now drafted with B C and D cup sizes i.e. larger circumference in front than in back or giving FBA instructions. I’m similar but on the other side of the waist i.e. more in front at the tummy switching to more in back at the seat.    Wouldn’t it have been better for me to start with something that fit my frame and added a little  ease where it is needed?  I’m choosing my top/blouse patterns by shoulders/frame. I usually make a large but I choose the size by comparing my TNT’s to the pattern.  Depending upon the draft, I may well use anything between small and extra large. Then I add at the seams between waist and seat. tops have gotten to be very easy fitting for me –although I should note that I often start with my “block” and simply append whatever style detail interests me in which case no fitting is needed.

 

Sigh, I think my brain is smouldering. Suffering from information overload. I’ve gone back in time to 10 years ago when my pants didn’t fit and I didn’t know why.

 

 

 

 

 

 

5682 - Jeans, Airlie

A Discussion of 3 Pant Patterns

Before starting this post, be sure you have your coffee/tea in hand and quite possibly a snack as this will be a long; laden with pictures. I will be discussing and comparing my experiences with 3 pants patterns

  1. Butterick B5682 a jeans pattern published by the Big 4 which has become my TNT. As I recall, it was amazingly easy to fit especially  because it was published by the Big 4.  It has been years, decades since I was able to fit and wear a Big 4 pant pattern.  Their crotch just didn’t fit.  I relied upon Kwik Sew for several years; then Burda.  The only consistently reliable pant pattern for me has been Trudy Jansen‘s 906 Designer Jean. I was surprised and delighted to be able to fit this Butterick pattern and it has become my basis for many pant adaptaions.  It is a jean pattern but more of a mom jean; not high fashion fit. It rests at the waist, with a narrow 1″ waistband extending just above. While it is a comfortable fit.  I agree that some tweaks need to be made so it is attractive.
  2. Style Arc Airlie a recent and deep disappointment for me. It’s not the 2 muslins, expense and waiting time and the innumberable fittings,  but rather the fact only a few years back Style Arc pant patterns were quick and easy for me to fit; and I mean I got a beautiful fit.  Knowing it had been quite some time since I’d been able to fit Style Arc patterns, I definitely hesitated to purchase Airlie.  I took the chance; ordered “all the way from Australia” and then felt deeply disappointed in myself with the repeated failures.
  3. The last pattern I will compare with is not actually a pattern, but rather my favorite RTW jean, the Diane Gilman 2, Baby Boot Cut Jean. I’ve loved this pant since the first time I slipped my legs into it.  It just felt good; really good. Immediately, due to my personal fit preferences, I went up one size over recommended. After a year, I switched from petite sizing to women’s petite because I have developed a thick waist. PW sizing gave me more than enough ease at the waist. I’d love to be able to duplicate the fit. So after about 6 years, I have a DG2 that has shrunk lengthwise.  I was about to shorten the leg and call it summer when I realized this could be the perfect opportunity to duplicate the fit.  I spent a few quality evenings with a seam ripper and extracted the front, back, yoke and waistband.

I’ve carefully pressed but those crotch points make no sense at all.  I also carefully measured the stretch in several places. Several because the pant is stretched out of shape much as we expect elderly clothes to do.  I measure between 20 to 25% stretch which is pretty standard in the fabric I buy. It was a relief to know that it isn’t entirely the stretch which is making this fit so nicely. That means, I may indeed be able to duplicate.

I am not addressing other pant patterns that I use and love because I am looking for something specific in these pants/patterns and review.  I am looking for a slacks fit i.e. slim, body skimming but not body revealing.  My other patterns and pant styles have their place in my wardrobe and in my life but  in this post I’m zeroing in on a semi-fitted  standard adapted for my body.

I preped for  this comparison by making sure the 3 patterns were distinctively different.  I figured RTW jeans would be obvious and mostly photogenic. I especially wanted to distinguish between 5682 and Airlie in pics. Painting 5682 rust brown took a few minutes, plus drying time and did the trick.

I compared the 3rd version (Arlie 3) with 5682 first, placing

Arlie on top. The legs are very similar. 5682 front leg side seam may be a little narrower but I’m not concerned as much with that as I am the difference in crotch both as to the shape in the front curve and how Airlie3 angles out at the front waist.  Both have had 1″ added at CF.  5682 should actually jut out there even further as it has an attached fly facing.  The difference in front crotch length is due to the difference in waist band width.

The back surprised me. The legs look much alike. I’m stunned by the difference in the back crotch angel. That’s 1+” on the 5682.  If youclick the back pic, also note how the back leg angels at the knee. OK, I should smooth out that curve, but I don’t think a mere smoothing will offset the 3/8″ more fabric at the knee the 5682 sports.

Reversing so that 5682 is on top:

is even more surprising. White interesting bits of Airlie peep out along the edge and crotch, ignore the extra at the top back; Airlie doesn’t need a back yoke 5682 does.

Moving onto DG2

Myabe not too much info there. DG2 seems to almost completely cover 5682.  If I had been asked before this experiment, I would have guessed the stretch jeans to be much smaller than the pattern drafted for non-woven fabrics. To my surprise that’s not the significant difference.   If you click the pics, it becomes obvious that wear has horribly stretched these out not only in the crotch but also along the waist. These are the P and not the larger waist PW jeans. I’m really wondering if I should have used this pair for pattern or comparison since it is both so old and so misshapen. In my defense, I didn’t realize the crotch would be so incredible. Look how the back crotch cannot be smoothed out to any semblance of flat. It must fold.  How do I copy a crotch like that.

There’s actually more to learn by putting 5682 tissue on top of the DG2 jean

I did not get a really good full front pic so I cropped them down to the signifiant difference.  The  crotches are very differenely shaped.  Although I’m not sharing a pic, the DG2 is much closer in shape to the Airlie crotch that my TNT 5682.  I’m surprised to see additional ease along the front inseam of DG2.  I love the way these fit (other than the P being too tight in the waist), whilst I’m always complaing about my self-sewn pants having to much ease over the back thigh which I always assummed the front also contributed. ???

I think it interesting that the DG2 back seems to be stretch out a bit just before the crotch curve.  Is it stretch for my rear? Other than the wear-shaped crotches (which I find hard to evaluate), what I notice the most is having about an extra 1/2″ on each side of the leg over the knee.  My DG2’s usually develop permanent horizontal stretch marks in back of the knee BUT not the diagonal drag lines I see on nearly all my self-sewn pants. Well heck, I see at least a little  knee diagonal on all my pants including  RTW that’s not a trouser.  I’ve tried shifting the pant-leg over and a few other suggestions. Any leg is fitted, will have knee diagonals when I put it on.  As long as they’re small and especially if they merge into horizontal knee wrinkles, I just ignore them. They’re on the back, so really not that hard to ignore.

This little exercise took me a couple of hours. I needed to prep 5692 the day before and press all the pattern/jeans pieces just before starting.  I take multiple photos trying to get not only the stuff I want to show but show it without blurring or color shift. So I wasted/spent lots of time taking pics.   That aside, I really do have lots of information to think about.  Where the pants are different is interesting to me and sometimes  unexpected; as were some of the places the pants/patterns were the same. It’s a great relief for me to know I don’t have to hunt down 40% stretch fabrics to use Airlie (if I ever fit Airlie). It may even be possible to use a non-stretch fabric with this pattern that specified a fabric with 40% stretch.  The difference in the back crotch between 5682 and Airlie3 was totally unexpected. I believe the Airlie started very close to the same shape as 5682. That’s something to check and test; as is the angle change of the inseam which adds more ease by my knee.  Ummm, much to think about. Very much.